Embracing growth mindset VS Impostor Syndrome.
“I have never tried that before so I think I should definitely be able to do it.” with Kevan Lee
Kevan Lee - VP of Marketing at Oyster (previously at Buffer)
Happy Friday :) Maxime here.
Few days ago I had the honour to have a discussion with Kevan Lee, a true legend in the marketing world, an inspiring leader and a personal mentor of mine.
According to Myers Briggs, Kevan is an INFJ personality type which is also known as a “Advocate” personality type.
An INFJ personality type is an individual with Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, and Judging personality traits. They tend to approach life with deep thoughtfulness and imagination. Their inner vision, personal values, and a quiet, principled version of humanism guide them in all things.
They are an extremely rare breed, as only 1.5% of the world population fits into that category, making it the rarest personality type in the world.
I had the chance to meet and collaborate with Kevan when we worked together at Buffer between 2015 and 2018. When we started this newsletter Kevan was the first person that came to mind. He is very inspirational to me when it comes to embracing new paths in your personal journey and climbing the ladder to the top.
Kevan started as a content Marketer at Buffer and grew to the top at the VP Marketing position in less than 5 years. If you do not know Buffer, they are one of the most respected SaaS company in the game and really nailed the art of
He is one of the instigators of Buffer inbound strategy that led to more than 100 Millions visitors per month on Buffer web pages. He is one of the most famous SaaS B2B Marketers in the world.
When I think of Kevan I always think about a peace keeper who knows how to take concrete steps to achieve his goals and make a lasting impact.
Kevan has since joined Oyster, an HR solution for remote companies as their VP of Marketing. You can find him on his personal website
https://www.kevanlee.com/
Tell us more about your career path. What do you think you have done right?
I have always admired people who know exactly where they want to go in their career and all the steps they will take to get there.
But that hasn’t been me.
If I’ve done anything right, it’s been to walk through doors as they’ve opened. It seems like the easiest thing in the world to just say “yes” when opportunities come to you (it also feels like a very privileged position to be in). What’s been difficult for me is saying “yes” to opportunities that I’m scared of, opportunities that are outside of my comfort zone. Embracing a growth mindset has been really important for me and learning how to live with impostor syndrome.
I’ve done a lot of things wrong, too. I remember a time at Buffer -- I remember the exact place I was when the conversation happened, the color of the couch I was sitting on - when I had the choice to stay on a content marketing path or to take on a new path of product marketing. I chose the new path. It’s hard for me to say that was “wrong.” But I have wondered a lot since: What would life be like had I stayed working on content-marketing, with the work that I was most passionate about?
How did you approach risk-taking in your 20's?
Take all the risks you can, if you can.
Risk-taking is not an option for everyone; many people may need to de-risk themselves in their 20s because of their circumstances or environment. If that’s the case, then I’d suggest finding a way to move risks into your hobbies or side hustles.
For those with the capability to take bigger risks with jobs or careers, I think the 20s are a fantastic time to do it because you have so much of your career in front of you. I worked at a veterinarian’s office for a few years, started a small blog / community on the side, and then fell into tech after my 30s.
What is the best advice you have ever received?
I really like this quote from Pippi Longstocking:
“I have never tried that before so I think I should definitely be able to do it.”
How do you approach career decisions?
Typically I try to be as objective as possible in weighing all my options. I wrote about my process here. It involves spreadsheets and lots of talking to friends and colleagues.
When I left Buffer, I spent many many months beforehand trying to improve my self-awareness so I could understand what I wanted out of my career, what was important to me, and what Buffer needed. It was easier to leave once I realised that I was no longer the best person to lead Buffer marketing. It was helpful to know that what I wanted next was to gain new experiences.
(Career Template used by Kevan)
Tell me more about your current challenges?
What is the day-to-day of a VP? Parts you enjoy and parts you find challenging?
I’ve generally found this advice from Adam Grenier (ex-Uber, Lambda School) to be true for my VP role:
“As a leader, I'm investing in infrastructure, development, experimentation, and firefighting.”
This is especially true for new leaders (with an extra emphasis on infrastructure and firefighting). As time goes on in my role, I am able to shift to more of the strategic development work and people development such that my days look a bit like this:
25% strategic development (planning, goaling, future-izing)
25% “infrastructure” (includes stakeholder management, hiring, and systems)
25% people management
25% reactive work that I’m more than happy to take on if it helps keep my team’s momentum going
One of the most challenging parts that took me awhile to learn is the concept of “first team.” It’s tempting to think of your marketing team as your “first team,” when really my first team is the fellow executives that I work closest with. Therefore I set up individual syncs with each of them so that we can connect, have visibility into one another’s work, and advocate for each other.
How do you empower people?
One of the most empowering things for me is transparency: give people access to information, data, and your thoughts so that they can better understand the full context of the business and how their work fits in.
It’s empowering to have access to this because it shows immediate trust and respect of the person you’re sharing with. And the extra context sharing gives them the tools they need to do their work most effectively.
What is your approach regarding personal branding?
One of the biggest benefits I’ve found to personal branding is with hiring. I feel like I am always hiring, so it’s been really great to have a small audience that I can share open roles with. I’ve even found some great new teammates through the connections I’ve made with my personal brand.
Overall, I do personal branding out of a desire to share with others the things that I’ve learned. I thank Buffer for that mindset. Personal branding has had some really positive outcomes for me when it comes to career opportunities, personal growth and habit-building, and having a playground to experiment with new marketing ideas. The way I conduct my personal brand -- lots of writing, a newsletter, etc. -- also serves as a forcing function for me to continue learning; if I’m not soaking in new information by reading and watching other marketers, then I won’t have anything to share with my audience.
What would you have done differently knowing what you know today?
I’ve become more aware of how important experience is to the job that you want. Before, I placed a high importance on education, which I believe is still true of many career paths and which still taught me lots of great skills in terms of organization, planning, collaboration, etc. But I got a degree in a field that isn’t marketing. I don’t have an MBA. I’m not formally educated in any of the work I’m doing now. And when I hire people, I more often look at what they’ve achieved in past roles -- very seldom where they went to school or what degree they earned.
Thank you all
Maxime:-)